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Old 09-01-2012, 02:15 AM   #21
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HOWEVER, he has never failed a drug test anywhere, anytime. Who cares what anyone says about seeing this or that?
So you believe Marion Jones should have her titles reinstated? And Tim Montgomery?

There are actually quite a few people who've never tested positive, but someone else's testimony has implicated them... and eventually they admitted it was all true. Do you think this is unfair? If so, why?

Let's say a guy at work is accused of verbally sexually harassing a woman over months or years, but the only evidence we have is eyewitness testimony from several of his workmates, should we reject that? If not, why is relying solely on eyewitness testimony acceptable for ordinary harassment, but not drug use?

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Sure, maybe he beat the tests, but what does that say about the tests?
It says that drug users and testers are in a constant technological conflict. They develop a test, the users develop a masking agent or new drug, this gets discovered and then a new test is developed, etc.

The tour de france has been dirty since the beginning, I mean for a hundred years. These guys used to put handkerchiefs soaked with ether across their faces to dull the pain of the effort, some of them even put cocaine in their fricking eyes to help keep themselves awake. Cyclists have been doping the longest of any sport, long before any kind of PEDs existed for weightlifting.

Don't feel too sympathetic for Armstrong. He's still a multimillionaire, the companies aren't asking for their endorsement money back. Reserve your sympathy for the athletes who refuse to dope and thus miss out on a placing in competition - because of all the dopers who haven't been caught.

How would you like missing out on a job because someone else had a better resume, and it turns out that he'd cheated on his university exams - just to go from 90 to 95%, surpassing your 91% - and in his last job he'd taken credit for others' work so he could now get a shining reference? That's how it is for the drug-free athlete. Keep your sympathy for them.
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Old 09-01-2012, 03:35 AM   #22
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I guess the thing for me is that Lance has been made a scapegoat in a sport where EVERYONE who wins uses some kind of PED or blood doping. As Kyle pointed out the TdF cyclists have been using enhancements since the start of the race. Tommy Simpson died from huge doses of speed he was using to help get him through. Modern racers are on an IV drip every night because they cannot eat enough food to fuel the racing for goodness sakes! Would we rather watch a TdF where they race slower and for less distance? Would we rather watch a Baseball game with no home runs because the batters are no longer on gear? Personally I would not. I

believe that ALL of the top athletes are using something to one degree or another and this is why I dislike the persecution of Lance or any other single athlete. Look at Bigger, Stronger, Faster. In that documentary it is revealed that Ben Johnson (stripped of 100m gold) who everyone claims was on steroids actually tested positive for Ephedra AND that Carl Lewis also tested positive during the run up to the Olympics that year but the American committee decided to retest and surprisingly he passed. The media wants a scapegoat and convinces people that PED use is a small problem. It isn't and to view it as such is just naive.

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Old 09-03-2012, 12:26 PM   #23
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This is just a load of crap. Why do this to him now? It is past the point. And who is to say that he would not have won anyway? And if he was taking drugs then it was for his sickness not to do better.
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Old 09-09-2012, 02:54 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Aaron View Post
So you believe Marion Jones should have her titles reinstated? And Tim Montgomery?

There are actually quite a few people who've never tested positive, but someone else's testimony has implicated them... and eventually they admitted it was all true. Do you think this is unfair? If so, why?

Let's say a guy at work is accused of verbally sexually harassing a woman over months or years, but the only evidence we have is eyewitness testimony from several of his workmates, should we reject that? If not, why is relying solely on eyewitness testimony acceptable for ordinary harassment, but not drug use?


It says that drug users and testers are in a constant technological conflict. They develop a test, the users develop a masking agent or new drug, this gets discovered and then a new test is developed, etc.

The tour de france has been dirty since the beginning, I mean for a hundred years. These guys used to put handkerchiefs soaked with ether across their faces to dull the pain of the effort, some of them even put cocaine in their fricking eyes to help keep themselves awake. Cyclists have been doping the longest of any sport, long before any kind of PEDs existed for weightlifting.

Don't feel too sympathetic for Armstrong. He's still a multimillionaire, the companies aren't asking for their endorsement money back. Reserve your sympathy for the athletes who refuse to dope and thus miss out on a placing in competition - because of all the dopers who haven't been caught.

How would you like missing out on a job because someone else had a better resume, and it turns out that he'd cheated on his university exams - just to go from 90 to 95%, surpassing your 91% - and in his last job he'd taken credit for others' work so he could now get a shining reference? That's how it is for the drug-free athlete. Keep your sympathy for them.
Your last point is exactly why I disagree with your opinion. Life is not fair. Genetics are not fair. Training and recovery are not fair. Physiology is not fair. humans are not equal, no race run or sport competed in is a fair fight. Utopia is quite a ways above us.

Usain Bolt is physiologically able to run faster than others, he "cheated" in the genetics department. He's so tall, it takes others more steps to run his race so he wins. That's fair to us short guys? OK, how about guys with bigger lungs? Their VMo2 numbers crush others. That's fair? What, they work harder? Really? Isn't training easier for them? So who's really better? the guy who has it easy or the guy who overcomes his genetics?

Sports are a way of "equalizing the masses" so to speak. Genetic freaks will rise to the top, cheaters will try to mimic their success, focussed dedicated worker bees will wedge their way in there at the top if they can. That's fair?

No, all sports seek to mitigate and establish rules. Drug tests if you will, etc.

Marion Jones, et al. chose to admit their guilt before evidence et al. caught up with them. It's not unfair that they worse cheaters than the cheaters they raced against. Perhaps, they actually felt guilt in their "achievements" and ceeded to their more worthy opponents.

Not the case with Lance. None of the racers he beat want his titles. Most of them are implicated themselves. As you so correctly pointed out, bike racing has always been dirty. Surprised you missed the british racer that won a tour stage but died from amphetamine in the 60's. Etc.

Sure, he was the best cheat at the time, but he won.

And the false dicotomy of your workplace analysis is ridiculous. You're comparing sexual harassment to doping? seriously?

Bottom line. Armstrong played by the rules of his time amidst the presence of many peers who did similar things. How does it advance anything by using sketchy evidence from guys who have no real evidence other than their word to discredit him now?

It's like saying, well Aleexyev and Arnold were strong, but years later, we figured out how they beat the system, except that system was pretty much the same system all the other lifters they competed against used and lost. Well, but they cheated, so sorry Arnold, no 7 Mr. Universes.

And btw, we'll excuse the losers of those titles and allow them to win if they are still racing as long as they go on record accusing the winners we want to scapegoat.

Lance has so far not have either happen to him.

That is the difference. Equality is in the eye of the beholder. There's not enough accurate beholders in the world to make everything fair.

Sucks for those johnny's with the lower GPA or the who can't take credit for someone else's work.

Better work on those people skills! Good luck!
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:50 PM   #25
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It is really a lost cause right now. I just do not get it. And I agree that if he never tested positive for drugs, then give up on it. I mean who really cares anyway?
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:29 PM   #26
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Lance asks Oprah for forgiveness.


Lance Armstrong Will Ask Oprah for Absolution, Forgiveness in Interview | Showbiz411

No forgiveness for the sub-par content on his site.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:06 PM   #27
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So, the Oprah interview will be on the 17th Jan; it seems like a lot of people are expecting more of a farse and/or generalisations at best than any sort of confession.

We'll see whether they're right or not, I guess.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:45 PM   #28
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I read somewhere the rumors of him finally coming clean are false, and that he still claims to be clean and innocent of all doping charges... If there was just one solid way to prove him guilty or innocent, unquestionably...but it's all hearsay.
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:17 AM   #29
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Lance to be Candid with Oprah

Rumor has it that he will admit to doping charges.

He testified under oath that he didn't so this could get interesting. His past sponsors could sue him as well.
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:12 PM   #30
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Lance to be Candid with Oprah

Rumor has it that he will admit to doping charges.

He testified under oath that he didn't so this could get interesting. His past sponsors could sue him as well.
Time will tell, on this one. 3 days and counting.
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