Originally Posted by RickB
But there is a point you can't go beyond if you are lifting "natural".
Sure, there is a point where gains dry up. I've been there for years. That's why I've turned more towards powerlifting as of late.
There's really no point in killing yourself once the gains dry up. I've had this discussion with Casey Butt and company. But I like the challenge, and my body feels good, so on I go...
Heck, I am one of the few guys that trumpets natural potential. I get beat up over it quite often. I pissed off a bodybuilder over it. He claimed 20" arms and 215 ripped as a natty before I called him on it and he deleted the thread. I get hated on frequently for standing up for reality.
My larger point was that guys like Zane, Arnold and Costa made the move after they made most of their gains. They made most of their gains on simple moves, using basic progression. Arnold killed himself with volume, but Zane was a bit more wise. Zane pulled back.
Pulling back is acceptable once you reach your "gains limit". My problem is that far too many young guys will read into this and think they never have to progress, only focus on the mind muscle connection, etc.
Originally Posted by RickB
^^ But on the deadlifts, they were from the knees up OR heavy rows. And incline bench was his primary bench routine...which as we all know most can't incline what you can flat bench.
You're splitting hairs Rick. Rack deads allow you to use more weight. And inclines are still a beefy lift.
I asked that as a follow up question so that readers wouldn't misconstrue Frank's comment on the previous question as only use isolations
. It's not about the big 3, it's about progression. Beginners and intermediates need to progress. Advanced lifters know their bodies, and if they are sane, realize that there are natural limits.
But shocker of shocker, most naturals..even guys who are 40+ and haven't gained an once in 10 years, still believe they can get that 5 to 10 pound growth spurt down the road if they keep pushing.
I will also add that there are armies of gym rats who aren't progressing, and who don't eat enough, and they aren't gaining. This indicates that at some point you do need to bulk in some form or fashion, and you do need to lift more weight as some point. I am not talking slob bulking, but man if you're 18, take advantage of your metabolism.
Guys like us may well be easy gainers. But I know that for every guy like us, there are dozens upon dozens who aren't gaining. I think they could definitely benefit from fewer weekly sessions, more progression and more food.
Finally, I will add that the guys on this forum train heavy and eat good, and have some darn impressive physiques. There are other boards I frequently where beginners focus on the wrong sort of training (too much bodybuilding mag training), and strict eating, and they view gaining size as the mystery of the ages. I have a foot in both these worlds each day, and I wish one could learn a bit from the other.